Welcome And Guest Introduction

Intro 0:03

Please stand clear of the doors. For favor, Please stand clear of the doors.

Alicea 0:23

Hello everyone. I'm Alicea.

Nathan 0:25

I'm Nathan.

Jill 0:26

And I'm Jill.

Alicea 0:27

Welcome to this week's episode of Adventures and Mouse Capades.

Nathan 0:31

Our guest today is a published professor from Guilford College in Greensboro, North Carolina. She holds a master's in divinity from Harvard, a master's and a PhD in religious studies from UNC Chapel Hill, which, as a longtime Duke fan, I'll do my best to overlook.

Alicea 0:49

She's here to talk about her new book, Why the Magic Matters: Discovering Disney as a Laboratory for Learning. It's designed to help undergraduate students look at familiar topics through an academic lens while also serving as a fascinating deep dive for Disney fans. The book brings together contributions from across many disciplines. We're talking art history, curriculum studies, disability studies, film and television, history, sociology, I'm going to keep going here, management, statistical science, and more, all using Disney as the case study.

Nathan 1:20

Yeah, so we are so pleased to have Dr. Jill Peterfesso with us today to chat about why the magic matters. Welcome, Jill.

Jill 1:28

It's really great to be here. Thanks, guys. And I'm, Nathan, I'm thrilled that you've read the book. So this is going to be a fun conversation.

Nathan 1:34

Absolutely. Yeah. I will pre-state that I made so many notes in my Kindle copy. I have I've pared myself down. This will not be a four-hour back and forth and really picking each other's brains, but I will go deep in a few places, and there are definitely some quotes that I pulled that uh I think are going to be great launching points for a couple uh questions.

Jill 1:57

Well, and the professor in me is thrilled to hear you annotated your text. So we’re, off to a great start.

Nathan 2:02

Highlights, notes, the works.

Alicea 2:05

That's that's hard for me. Like I never annotated books. But I always had like the paper ones. I it just felt wrong to me. I don't know why.

Jill’s Disney Origin Story

Nathan 2:16

As the son of a librarian, I had the same thing. I never wrote anything in the books, but I had copious notes in a notebook alongside. Yes, copious notes, definitely. Yes. But on a Kindle, you're not harming anything. So it's great. It's great.

Alicea 2:29

Well, before we dive into the book, can you tell us a little bit about your Disney background? Did you go to the parks growing up or was it all Disney Channel stuff?

Jill 2:40

We actually did not have Disney Channel when I was a kid. So um it started, I didn't go to the parks till I was eight years old, which fortunate and lucky to go at that age. It was a turning point. But up to that time, I definitely watched the movies. It was when you know they'd released the movies at different times in theaters, and so we'd see some of them in theaters. Um within VCRs became a thing. So we had some things on VHS that we could then watch ad nauseum. Um, we had Mickey's Mouser Size, which I you guys talked about in your first episode, um, which I loved, and we had the record. Um, I think the other thing that was really impactful for young me was a record of sounds from the Haunted Mansion. I don't know if you're familiar with this record. It was like the cover was the Haunted Mansion and just all these eerie sounds, and I used to put on haunted houses in the basement with my siblings, like playing that record when I was like, I mean, probably after I'd gone to Disney World, this just seemed like the thing I had to do.

Nathan 3:44

Yeah.

Jill 3:44

Um, so I always, you know, Disney was like in the background, but also very present, as I think it is for many of us. Um, and then yeah, I went to Disney World when I was eight, and I I feel like that was life-changing, like to see a built environment like that where everything was designed for maximum positive emotion. I'm like, this makes sense. Like, if if we have creativity and intelligence and the will and the way, why don't we do this? Like, you know, smart people do creative things that bring joy to the world. Why not? So um, I was just really sort of hooked from that moment forward, and I became that person who wrote like, if friends were going to Disney World, I would create little little guidebooks by hand with pictures, like this is what you have to do. And I was, of course, inspired very heavily by like the Steven Burnbaum books. I don't know if you remember those guides. This was before the delightful snark of the unofficial guides. So I would make, I would make guides. Um, when given the chance to take, like to pick a project for school, I would always pick Walt Disney. I mean, he was because he's a Midwesterner, and I'm a Midwesterner. He grew up in Missouri, you know, from age four onward and Chicago before that, back to Chicago in his teenage years. So it's like we're we're both from the Midwest.

Nathan 5:03

Yeah.

Jill 5:04

So I just loved it. But um, you know, early on, and this is why I became a professor, no doubt, is if I really love something, I want to think about it critically. I want to think about it deeply. And I always was thinking deeply about Disney, um, even from when I was younger. Like, how does this work? Why does it work? Why did they do make this choice? So that's awesome. Yeah, sort of a lifelong fan, and it's just evolved over the years.

Teaching A Disney Fieldwork Class

Nathan 5:28

Yeah. Some people take that kind of brain and and you know, become a professor. Some people take that kind of brain and become an engineer, but it's the same kind of like, why does this thing work? Why is this happening? Why do we do this? Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Alicea 5:43

Now you actually have a college class that travels to a Disney park as an in-depth remote classroom. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Jill 5:52

Yes, I've gotten to teach this class twice. I hope to teach it again in the future. It's called, what did I call it? I'm not gonna remember the exact title. Um, Magic, Narrative, and Self-Discovery, I believe is what I called it. So uh we used to have these three-week intensive semesters, and the class was perfect for that. So we would spend about a week learning everything about Disney together on campus. Um, and of course, I had to be selective about what that is because you can't learn everything about Disney and even a whole if you there's no major in Disney that I'm aware of, and you you couldn't even learn everything in that. But so in a week we pack as much as we can, and then we go to the parks for about five days and then we come back and debrief. And but the goal of the class um is getting students to think about how magic is made. Like what are the choices that Disney's making? And thus they students are asked and invited to do uh ethnographic work in the parks. So they sign up for a topic that I direct them to. They can also pick something, but some topics students have chosen in the times I've taken them. Um interactions with characters in the parks, for instance, sound in the parks, foliage plants, food and food presentation, um smells, color. Like they they get attuned to it and then they wander the parks and and the resort and they collect data, and then they put something, they put together a presentation on how Disney is doing this, and then I invite them to like, okay, so what does this mean about intentionality, about design, about um creating culture, relating to other people, building relationship? And so they it's really like they get to go on this adventure with their classmates and it's great community building and bonding. But on the way, they're together on independent projects. And it works really beautifully. It's it's a lot of fun what they discover. And often, as students always do, they show you things that you don't notice until they've pointed it out to you.

Nathan 8:00

Yeah. I think you also talked a little bit about it in the the opening for your the book, that it it also helps teach you know undergrads how to think differently and to take a um a perspective of hey, it's Disney. We all kind of like have this concept of the company or the man or or the parks or whatever, and to apply a different lens on that that actually has like a different rigor. And so I love like, okay, how is Disney using color and what what is their intentionality behind that? And like, how do you think that works and all the rest of that? Like, that's just fascinating. I love turning people's heads like that on something they think they know and seeing it for the first time, even though it's the tenth time. That's great.

Jill 8:49

Yeah, it's like when I give students this example sometimes in the classroom, like, okay, if I said the color red and asked you to look around, suddenly red would be popping everywhere. That's what I want you to do when we step into the parks. Like you, you're looking through your eyes through this lens at this topic you've chosen and seeing how it's operating. And it's interesting, I've like had students who like did projects on sound and music, for instance, saying, like, I can't not hear it now. Like the rocks are singing. Like, correct. I want you to notice when the rocks change sound as you step another 10 feet away. Um, but it's awesome what you can observe when you when you become attuned to it. And Disney offers a festival of things to see and smell and hear and experience and engage with. And so it's a great, it's a great um laboratory, it's a great field trip, so to speak. Um, there's just so much there. And it's safe, like it's not scary to students who are new to traveling. A lot of students at my school don't have a lot of experience with travel. Many have never traveled internationally, and this is a great first trip. Like it's America exploded. So it's familiar, but also completely foreign. And walking that uh that back and forth is a great place to put your brain if you want it to expand and grow.

Why Write Why The Magic Matters

Nathan 10:05

Yeah, especially in college, because like, hey, the whole wide world's out there. It's time to realize it's bigger than the little town you're from.

Jill 10:12

Yeah.

Nathan 10:13

So I I want I love this passage from the introduction. I'm gonna read a little bit of an excerpt here. ‘As to the idea that Disney traffics in made-up stories of fake people and pretend places, I note that the Louvre and the Met are filled with paintings of events that never happened and sculptures of things that never existed. We call that art. And I'm not sure there's a difference. And if you think that stories are for children and adults should concern themselves with that that is that is tangible and real, I say with sincerity, do you know how money works?’ Um, so I just I love that whole perspective. And it and it's like as a Disney adult, it's it's amazing to like hold those two kind of things together. What draws you personally to the company and its offerings from both a personal and a professional perspective today?

Jill 11:06

I first of all, I love that passage and props to uh that was written by Len Testa, the the the famous Len Testa. He um was very gracious to write a foreword for our book, and um I was on the dish a few months ago as well. So he's always he's always great. And so if you know Len at all, you can hear the Len, like the the sarcasm and the humor, but like so on point in that quote. Um, what draws me to Disney as your question was as a as a person, but also as a scholar? Was that the question?

Nathan 11:36

Yeah.

Jill 11:37

I have endless curiosity about this thing and how it works and why it is so appealing to people. And the more I learn, you know, the more I grow as a scholar and somebody who studies and somebody who thinks about things over and over again with students, the more I have new we use the term lenses earlier, new lenses to to apply to Disney. Um and Disney is changing. So I identify as a cultural historian, and Disney has definitely changed, not just in my lifetime, but like in the last five years. Like Disney post-COVID is really different. And I I like to think about how that is how Disney is evolving, sometimes in ways I'm excited about, more often, unfortunately, lately ways I'm less excited about. Um watching that and watching the responses to that, and then you know, I don't just leave it at that. I have my own reactions to what Disney's doing, like as a consumer of Disney. But I'm also like, what does it mean that people are so invested in this? Like, I'm able to have my own reaction and then I step back and analyze that. Like, what is it about what Disney means to me that I get worked up when Disney does this?

Nathan 12:50

Yes.

Jill 12:50

Or what is it about the fact that I go to Disney with students and suddenly, like during happily ever after, they are weeping in front of me. Like, that's a beautiful shared experience. And also, what the heck do I do with that as a scholar?

Nathan 13:05

Right.

Jill 13:05

Yeah, and an ethnographer. So there's just endless things that Disney offers because it taps into nostalgia and our childhoods and so often our families and relationships with friends and family people who mean a lot to us. And so, because Disney has so successfully intertwined itself with our experiences of ourselves in the world and our understanding of ourselves as Americans, I believe this is really huge. Um, there's really so much to think about. And I'm not good at calming my mind, so I love to just think and think while also enjoying and absorbing like a sponge.

Nathan 13:42

Yeah.

Alicea 13:44

So why write why magic matters? What was your aim with this book?

Jill 13:51

Yeah, so um this is this is an edited volume, is when they call this in the academic world, which means I I edited the book um along with a co-editor, Alexis Franzese. So we are the editors of the book, and we collected chapters from a range of people. And what the and we wrote many parts of the book, but really it was sort of overseas, it was project management, essentially.

Nathan 14:17

Right.

Jill 14:17

And the motivation for this topic and this book for me was twofold. One, there's this little part of me that was getting a little tired of the eye rolls or the skepticism when you when people hear you teach Disney classes. Yeah. Um, like that just doesn't mean like why what a waste. What college student needs to do that unless they're studying tourism and hospitality? I'm like, oh no, no, you're missing the point.

Nathan 14:46

Yeah.

Jill 14:46

Um I can say more about that later. The other impetus really was, and this is really a passion for me as well. I'm a big liberal arts person. Um I believe that education, like not everybody needs to go to college. I'm not making that case as a college professor, but if you're gonna, if you're gonna learn, I believe college is about learning how to learn for a lifetime. And I think that's something that I wish, I hope everybody wants to to participate in with something.

Nathan 15:17

Yeah.

Jill 15:17

And the liberal arts are beautiful at teaching people how to learn. Like how to learn, how to learn. And um higher ed is having a hard time now and over the past several years. And small colleges like mine are struggling financially. There's a demographic cliff where there just aren't as many young people going into college, plus COVID knocked a lot of people out of the college track just by choice, especially young men. So there's this part of the book for me, and I think you can hear it in my voice, like toward the end of the introduction that I wrote. I'm like, college matters, the liberal arts matter. Y'all thinking about things matters.

Nathan 15:53

Yeah.

Jill 15:54

So it's really twofold. And Disney, as I tell students, um, you know, oftentimes students pick a Disney class because it sounds easy. They are very, they're very wrong, unfortunately. Um, they're like, wait, I thought we were just gonna watch Disney movies. I've heard that so many times. Um, and I want to back up and say I teach a couple travel classes, but I've also taught many classes that don't travel on Disney. And it's not like I teach only Disney classes. I feel the need to make sure your listeners understand. Um, I teach like six plus classes a year, maybe one every year or so is a Disney class. The rest I'm doing my religious studies and gender study stuff that I went to that I got my PhD for. Um so yeah, so students think it's gonna be easy, but I'm like, no, no, to understand Disney, if you can, if you can critically examine Disney, which we tend as a culture to be like, oh, it's for kids.

Nathan 16:50

Yeah.

Disney Through Religious Studies

Jill 16:50

Isn't it nice? Like if you can think deeply about that, you're learning how to learn for a lifetime. Yeah so it's a great way to get those skills. And so the book, those were sort of the two things that made me want the book to look the way that it did. And then it becomes a matter of let's bring in all these other professors who do the same sort of thing from their disciplinary locations. Yeah. Because, and I don't, yeah, when I teach Disney, it's not even that exclusively about religious studies. Like it's history and literature and film studies and art and anthropology and gender studies and some religion. So let's bring in all these people.

Nathan 17:28

That's actually a great segue because uh the next thing I wanted to ask about is you know, we often joke about the house of mouse and how, you know, some people say it really kind of turns capitalism into a religion, but you're actually a religious studies professor. So how how do you approach how I guess what is the intersection of Disney and religious studies? I'm fascinated by that.

Jill 17:48

Yeah, so I it's uh I'll give a plug for a book that should come out in about a year. There's a book on Disney and religion, another edited volume. Uh Jody Eichler Levine, who is at Lehigh University, is editing that book. I've written a chapter in that book, as have some other great people. Uh, I look forward to that book coming out. So we are starting to think about this, like the religion and Disney people are like starting to like make an appearance, even though we've been in the shadows for a long time. Um, what are the intersections? There are so many. So for me, I'm a cultural historian, as I've said. Um I look at the way that Disney has wrapped itself in a certain American narrative and reinscribed it over and over again. And that narrative involves progress and capitalism and consumerism, and picking yourself up by your bootstraps, and being individualistic, and being in a community while being individualistic. And religion is nothing if not story. So I think that Disney again has wrapped itself up in the American story and thus tells us who to be as Americans. I see that as a religious project in some ways. Um I mean, there are other things I talk about. I've got a Disney and religion book in the works. We'll see if it ever gets finished. But like, you know, WWJD is a bracelet. What would Jesus do? I think so much of Disney is WWWD. What would Walt do? Yeah. Walt is sort of enshrined as a sort of in a hagiographic way, like he has been elevated, and so his persona becomes almost sacred at times.

Nathan 19:29

I mean, there's icons of Walt in many of the parks, like literally.

Jill 19:33

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so I know another thing I think a lot about, and I this is coming out in the chapter that I wrote for this book on Disney religion. There are strands of religion uh in of American religions that focus a lot on positive thinking. Like the power of positive thinking is sort of like not the starting point of that. It goes back to something called American New Thought, which is 19th century. And um, so I see Disney as a form of new thought because it is telling us how to think. And if we think a certain way, we make things happen. That that has religious antecedents in America and in American religious traditions. Um, and the other thing I'll say about Disney and religion is in a in America, well, sorry, Protestantism tends to say like religion is about thinking. Like you think a certain belief, you just believe correctly. Um but so much of religion, and I I agree with that with my new thought example just a minute ago. But religion is also very much for billions of people around the world over time, what you do. So Disney involves invites a doing. So there's there's a huge fandom piece that I'm looking at as well. Like going to the parks, wearing ears, buying group t-shirts, wearing a lounge fly, um, always doing your first family night together at Tapolinos. I don't know, tell like whatever it is that you that you do, people ritualize. And so Disney is about Disney becomes about doing as much as it is about thinking.

Nathan 21:06

Yeah.

Jill 21:07

So I hope all that makes sense. Um, as a religion scholar, I know that people have a like a clear view in their minds of what religion is, and religion scholars tend to be like, oh, it's everything else. And people are like, come on. Like Disney's not a church. People have made that case. Disney could be seen as a church, and certainly it's been likened to a pilgrimage site before, like a middle-class pilgrimage site. So these things are in the water already academically.

Nathan 21:30

Yeah.

Jill 21:30

Um, it just becomes like, what do we make of it? Uh, there are other people, I'm not a theologian, there are theologians who look at Disney messages and try to pull out um some religious content. So Disney as a shrine is something that people have talked about. So there's a lot of ways to look at Disney as a religion, and my focus tends to be cultural, um, pastoral, too. I talked a little bit about ministry and cast members.

Nathan 21:56

So is is that what you describe as the difference between religion? Religious studies and kind of like that theology aspect of it of the belief. Because I think when many people hear, like, oh, you're a professor of religious studies, they kind of jump to the theology aspect of it. Yes. But it sounds like you're much more of the cultural aspect of it. And whatever belief system that framework lives within is almost immaterial. There's different belief systems for different religions or you know, the Disney universe or the whatever you know universe that you're happen you happen to be in. I mean, even like big tech or whatever, like there's a there's a culture and almost kind of a lowercase R religion around that. Is that kind of the difference?

Jill 22:45

You can certainly make that case. I think that's when religious study scholars having fun are like, yeah, let's look at like what is is AI are gonna have a religion? Like is like, you know, um there's so many different fandoms that can have religion practices, behaviors, like is this a religion? Um at the end of sort of a culminating class in my department. Uh, you know, one of the first things I ask students to do who are seniors who've been taking religion classes for three years, four years, like define religion. They they can't. They fight about it, we fight about it for a whole day of class. And it's great because that's the point.

Nathan 23:22

Right.

Jill 23:22

Um, but yeah, theology is not quite the same thing. And so in some of my classes, we definitely read and study theology, but I'm I'm not teaching them theology. Like I'm not a priest, a priest or a pastor that's like, and this is what you should believe in why. Right. Um I I tell students like the most simple like way you can think about this is um theology is thinking about God. Religious studies is thinking about people thinking about God.

Nathan 23:51

Got it.

Jill 23:52

So theology is sort of like the deep dive into the study, the theo theology, the study of God. And then religious studies is like, what happens when people have beliefs? What do they do? What do they make? What conflicts do they get into? Why are they motivated in that way?

Nathan 24:07

That's fascinating. All right. I could I will I'm restraining myself on people.

Jill 24:12

And I talk a lot too.

Nathan 24:13

So Alicea, take this away because otherwise I'm gonna

Alicea 24:17

So you mentioned before for this project, you served as an editor rather than an author. Can you help us understand what that actually means in practice? Like how much freedom do you have in shaping the chapters, like structure or clarity, or even gently rescuing a few overly long paragraphs in the name of readability?

Jill 24:39

Um yeah, I think this is what depends on the editors. So I've participated in a lot of edited volumes, and sometimes it's hands-off. It's like, oh great, you got your thinking on time. Thank you. Bye. We'll see you at final proofs. Um Alexis and I were really hands-on. Some of that is me. Like I have a side hustle as an academic editor. So anybody out there's looking, let me know. But I do really love texts, and I love helping authors find their voice. And and for this book in particular, um, you know, we didn't want this to be, yeah, Alexis and I said this a lot. We don't want this to be another dry academic text. Like we want this to be something that people would read on vacation. I think you're the first we've heard, Nathan, but that's awesome. That they could read, you know, on their nightstand, like pick up a chapter and read it before bed, or um, something that would be accessible. So we worked really hard because some of our authors are used to writing for academic journals, yeah, and others in their field. And so there was a there was a lot of effort to make sure that whatever was being said was clear and understandable to a range of readers, especially because, like, you know, we've got people coming from so many different disciplines, but the people picking up the book are not going to be familiar with all the disciplines. So how do you how do you make this readable and accessible? So as we said over and over again, like we need you to teach your material via your chapter to the reader. Um, so it was it was fun to help I clarify some of the some of the readings. Um But yeah, I mean, everybody was great, so I don't want to make it sound like any of these folks like needed a tremendous amount of hand holding. Like these are consummate professionals, professionals who are super passionate about what they get to do.

Nathan 26:29

Yeah.

Jill 26:29

And working with them was awesome. So yeah, there was some steering, there was organizing the project, figuring out like why is this book different from other books? Because publishers don't want to publish everything anymore. It's expensive to publish books. So, you know, it's not like we want to write a book, and publishers are like, great, come on. They're like, No, we're gonna put this through peer review. We're gonna make sure that this is something worth doing. You need to prove to us that this isn't a book that's already come out a hundred times or even once. So it has to be new. So we had to constantly make sure we were able to prove that and get the the chapters to speak in a similar voice to our readers.

Nathan 27:03

Yeah. Well, you did a fantastic job. I was actually gonna kind of dive into that in my next question, but now I'm just gonna skip it because you really just talked to that. Uh I the only thing I will add here is is to uh give myself a little bit of a an excuse is that it it was a it was a Disney cruise vacation where I read the book. So I was it was still on topic.

Jill 27:24

Please tell me you sat at the pool and people were like, what are you reading? And you said, this great book here. You should buy it too.

Nathan 27:30

No, I I did one better. I sat on the balcony of our Disney cruise as we were crossing the the Gulf and and just enjoying the the lovely serenity of being on the ocean and diving into a college textbook because that's what everybody does, right?

Jill 27:44

Did you take a picture actually? Like I would love to see.

Alicea 27:48

I was on a Kindle though, so you couldn't see the title or anything.

Jill 27:51

Oh, you're right, yeah, right. All right.

Nathan 27:54

I'll stage one next time we're on the ship.

Jill 27:56

Did you guys recognize the cover image? This was a big thing for us.

Nathan 28:01

I've seen it somewhere, and it's not I because I have a I was reading it on my iPad as with the Kindle app, and so I had because I knew I was like, oh, if anything's in color, I want to be able to see this. Yeah, just I don't I can't place it.

Jill 28:14

This is at Disneyland. It's like before you enter into the the like the two gateways. It is pretty it's in the center. I didn't take this picture. Um but yeah, it's at Disneyland between, I'm pretty sure my understanding is it's between DCA and Disneyland.

Nathan 28:30

Oh, in the Esplanade.

Jill 28:31

So it's a huge mosaic, like a huge mosaic.

Nathan 28:34

They've done so much construction there.

Jill 28:37

I hope it's still there.

Nathan 28:38

And I wonder if that's where they often put they'll they'll often have like a display if there's like a festival or a season or something there. Like they have a whole big display right now in the middle of that Esplanade because it's Disneyland 70th for the whole resort. And I wonder if that's like sitting right on top of that.

Jill 28:55

And so I Yeah, I haven't been to Disneyland since 2019. So I'm hoping to go actually this fall, but I I'm gonna look for this because I found it. It it's actually really hard. This won't surprise you guys that um many, many Disney images are are uh not copyrighted. So or they are copyrighted, so we can't just use them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, but I I love this particular in particular because it's like a mosaic. So I think of our book as bringing a lot of little pieces together to make a picture that's worth looking at.

Nathan 29:22

Yeah. Well, we'll be there in April in Disneyland. So we'll let it be. Let me know. Yeah, absolutely. We'll be on the lookout.

Jill 29:28

Find it for me.

Alicea 29:30

The chapters are organized in four sections, and I'll list the sections. We have one, magic and strategy, two, authenticity and simulation, three, nostalgia and innovation, and four, leisure and labor. Can you talk a little bit about why you landed on that format and how these seemingly opposite concepts can help us learn a little more about Disney?

Jill 29:52

Yeah, sure. So this is credit to Alexis who um wanted to do this dialectic framework, and it worked really beautifully. Um the idea of dialectics, like don't read listeners, don't get intimidated by uh philosophical terms. Um the simplest way to explain how we use dialectic in dialectic pairs in this text is contradictory things together that actually aren't contradictory when you put them in the in the world of the thing you're analyzing. So Disney is not just magic, but it's also not just strategy. Like those two go together and they seem like one negates the other, but that isn't how it works. They are intertwined. And when I teach dialectic thinking and pairs to my students, which I just did a couple weeks ago in an African-American religions class, um I envision like two points, like on a plane, and then like a uh an infinity symbol, like weaving in and out of them. Like they are just held together, like there's like a like a tension, um, a gravitational pull that keeps them together even if they're separated.

Nathan 31:01

Yeah.

Jill 31:02

And so Disney does all of these things. Like I think one of my favorite pairs, I think my favorite pair is nostalgia and innovation. Like Disney touches on all of these emotions. And I talk about that in the intro section for that, for nostalgia and innovation. I students talk about it. We all can, anyone who loves Disney, even some people who don't, can remember some profound moment at a park or watching a film. But Disney's also highly innovative. Like Walt Disney himself was a creator of new film techniques and television, and everything that he did was, you know, innovative, like pushing and plussing. But those two things go together. They don't, it's Disney not one or the other. Um leisure and labor is also a really fun one. Uh Lexis has done a lot of work on this. Like Disney is a lot of fun, and it's a ton of work. And those things go together. Um, so it's I I really like the framework. I really like the framework for inviting readers to think like philosophers, to think like scholars, to to go beyond the binary, to go beyond the black and white, and think about other what other pairs do you notice like in your Disney fandom? Like I bet your listeners would have a lot of ideas of ways that Disney seems to be contradictory, but is also um it wouldn't be what it is if it weren't both of those things.

Nathan 32:28

Yeah. I mean, and there are whole podcasts that center themselves around the love of nostalgia and at times the frustration of the new things, and yet it's the new things that you if you give it enough time become the nostalgia, and then they don't want those things to go away either. Yeah.

Jill 32:46

Yeah, which is a great point.

Nathan 32:47

Yeah.

Jill 32:48

And that's the history that I love, the like the how the change over time happens. Right. Such a great point.

Nathan 32:53

So chapters three and four are just like fascinating dives into the statistics and and data analysis that Disney has at its fingertips, and the way they intentionally make design choices to guide uh guide the guest through a story uh and experience in the parks. Now, that said, knowing your emotions and reactions are the result of a constructed experience by a business doesn't make them any less real. But like it feels like there's a key lesson or two readers should take away from from the book in that. And because that they're there as, you know, two kind of diametrically opposed. Like, I love the emotions that Disney's making me feel, but they're using, you know, stats and analysis, and they are intentionally making me feel away because they want to make more money. Like I get the feeling from from kind of the introductions and and things you've said that that's not necessarily you're not saying that we should like stop that and wise up and like reject that. Like, can you talk a little bit about how we should approach the those two like the dialectics, those two opposing concepts?

Jill 34:02

Yeah, I hesitate to be prescriptive, but I can offer how I can for sure. Um, and I will again quote Len Testa here from a I think he was quoted in a New York Times article last August, but he's like, let's be clear, Disney is a data and analytics company that also makes films and themeworks. Um, so he's, you know, in some ways he's he's not wrong.

Nathan 34:22

It's well, I mean he also has a data science background and a computer science background. Right, exactly.

Data Driven Design And Real Emotion

Jill 34:28

Yeah. Um, the way I, you know, do I walk through the parks and think, oh, I'm being manipulated. Um I sure could, but I don't because the feelings are too good. And really what it comes down to for me is the imagineers are amazing.

Nathan 34:48

Yes.

Jill 34:48

I think of imagineering as maybe I shouldn't be, maybe this is me, um letting myself accept, letting myself love what I love. But uh I think the imagineers are in it to create the most incredible experiences they can give us in the budgets that they've been given. So I and I think going back to the parks history, to Walt's own history, um, Walt was a super complicated man. Um, but but not but I'll say and Walt was a super complicated man, and I think he wanted deeply to give joy, whether it was because he struggled to find it himself or he just thought that was the way to make the world better. There are different biographies that have different views, but I think the company's core and the people who do the creative work, and most, if not all, of the cast members are trying to create that joy. Yes. And so I appreciate that effort and will see it and nod to it, even if the company itself and the beam counter folks are driving me crazy. Um, there are still the good people doing amazing things and giving us like mind-blowing attractions and and graphics and experiences.

Nathan 36:00

It's funny, we we we have friends who are many friends who are former cast members or in some current cast members, and everybody that we've talked to that that joy, whether they're some are bean counters and some are more frontline. Um but the they always center in on uh that making the guest experience and and the joy that they get to um impart on others, whether it's by fixing rides or or attaching uh stern characters on the back of a Disney cruise ship or ensuring that there's enough food purchased and delivered and in the right restaurants for the next day. Like there's this common mission across everybody at the company to do the right thing for the guest. And to a certain degree, that is something that gets indoctrinated into them and the into the Disney way and through you know traditions and and all the rest of that. But but it comes across as a genuinely authentic belief and feeling to a person from everybody that we've talked to. And it really, I think, is the biggest differentiator between going to a Disney park and going to a non-Disney theme park. That like there's just that sparkle, that extra 10 or 15% that just oftentimes isn't there, no matter how amazing the rides or or how nice some of the the people are. There's just this, there's just something more that's something special about a Disney park that is because of that joy that people want to give to others. And uh you hit the nail on the head.

Jill 37:45

Are you guys familiar with the One Day at Disney book or like the it's also a Disney um Disney Plus series? One day at Disney Book. Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, it's so that's what I was thinking about as you were talking just now, Nathan. Like that that's a great show. I recommend it to anybody who hasn't checked it out yet. But it's like eight to ten minute stories about cast members.

Nathan 38:06

Yeah.

Jill 38:06

And this this is what I do in my class when it's like, how is magic made? Like that's one of my big assignments is how how would we make magic? Like, here are people doing their jobs, drawing some kind of salary, but they are making magic. Like, and then I want students to drop on that. How how do you make magic in what you do? Like, how do you give it that extra 10%, 15%? How do you find love and joy in what you do even when it's a slog?

Nathan 38:34

Right.

Jill 38:34

Like that's what I hope Disney can help me to teach students or invite students to think about.

Nathan 38:40

Yeah, I love that.

Alicea 38:42

Nathan, you mentioned traditions. I just do want to note what traditions actually is. It's the new cast member orientation, basically. Yeah, it's a class that they take or or a series of classes that they take to learn about how Disney makes the magic for everybody coming in.

Nathan 39:00

It is it is the key, I will say, indoctrination into the religion of being a Disney cast member. Of being a Disney.

Jill 39:07

And this is why it comes up in my Disney book project as part of religion. Like where what is the sake what are those foundational texts and practices, traditions?

Nathan 39:17

Yeah. That's amazing. That's awesome.

Alicea 39:20

All right. In um in chapter six, Sarah Nielsen explores how Walt Disney's movies and shorts used animals and nature in ways that basically influenced early environmental thinking. It's a great read for Disney fans, but from an academic standpoint, what is the bigger lesson that you hope readers walk away with?

Jill 39:41

First of all, Sarah Nielsen is an awesome Disney scholar and one of the most seasoned scholars in our book. And she's been featured on a lot of Disney uh documentaries. I think it was The Mouse. What is do you guys remember the Mickey Mouse documentary that came out a couple years ago? It's like 90 minutes. It's really good. It's on Disney Plus. It was all focused on Mickey Mouse.

Alicea 40:04

Was it Mickey the Story of a Mouse?

Jill 40:07

Yes. Yes.

Nathan 40:08

Okay.

Jill 40:08

Yeah. Yeah. Sarah was interviewed in that, I'm pretty sure. Um that she's been in things. She's awesome. So, what do I want people to take away from this? So I I intend to use my book, this book, Why the Magic Matters. Next time I teach my Disney class, which will be next fall. And I'm definitely going to use this. And the reason I will use this is one, people care about environmentalism right now. Most people, especially young people, care about the environment. Um, and here's a chapter that suggests and proves that television and film were part of an environmental culture shift, which I find really fascinating. Media, before media was what media is now, media was making uh waves and having a lot of impact in uh in American culture, shifting really like Sarah's chapter shows, there's an entire shift in the conservation mentality from the beginning to the middle to the end of the 20th century because in in large part to efforts like Walt Disney's. I also think what's valuable here, I alluded earlier to Walt being a complicated figure. And I I think that's not a bad thing. I think people like to keep him pure, but I invite messiness in all people at all times. I think that's what makes it interesting. Here is Walt as a human who loves to connect to the natural world and the animals in it, um, in a time when that wasn't the norm. He was groundbreaking and innovative there. What Sarah doesn't talk about, and what I will talk about with students, is an uh an analysis of gender to Walt as a man loving animals and not hunting and killing them. Um and then, in fact, anthropomorphizing them, humanizing them in his in his documentaries and his films. I think there's something really, really moving to me about that.

Nathan 42:01

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then it is complicated. I I can't remember if it was in that chapter or or I think it must, or uh a couple chapters later, where uh they were talking about uh, or the author was talking about a uh resort that Walt had proposed, like up in the mountains in California. And I think it was like two or three chapters later, and then all of a sudden in my brain, I was like, wait, he's he was talking about kind of like almost sort of paving over like this huge swath of like pristine forest and and plopping this resort down up in a you know, kind of like a mountain pass. And it's like there's another dichotomy of like, how do you hold, you know, the the guy who's trying to effectively push forward, uh, you know, be good to the environment, take be stewards of the environment at the same time we're gonna go plunk a resort. And he had a lot of pushback from the, if I remember correctly, from the locals in that area in California who are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, how about let's not like put a theme park kind of attraction in the middle of a pristine forest? Let's just let this be. So, like to your point, Walt's a complicated figure. There's a lot to go around on both sides.

Jill 43:13

And the the chapter you're referring to is um by Christopher Tremblay, uh, who the chapter is called Teaching Walt. Yes. He does a class called Walt's Pilgrimage. He does it like almost every summer, where he takes students from his school like through Walt's life. Yeah. It's so cool. You can look up Walt's pilgrimage online from Chicago to Marceline to Kansas City and then out to California. So, yeah, you're talking about the Mineral King project. And you're right. Like Mineral King, and it was going to be sort of ski resort and other things. So, you know, Walt's idea of preserving and bringing people into beauty would have involved some destruction of the natural world. It's complicated.

Nathan 43:50

In uh in Theme Park America, which is chapter 11 from Alex Hoffman, it's noted that 90 million Americans tuned in to see the first. Episode of the Disneyland just like introduction series on ABC before the park opened in 1955. That's like half the population of the country at the time, and more than watched us land on the moon 15 years later. Like, while I'm sure your publisher would love it, clearly this book has a slightly smaller, addressable audience. Um how so how do we think about like the broader scope and impact on uh from Disney on the American public and the world at large? We can't all run around telling all there's others they're ill-informed. So, how do we approach those who have not yet learned to hold kind of the yin and yang, the good, the bad, the the nostalgia, the the you know, moving forward at the same time? Like, how do we help all those folks who haven't thought through all this move forward in a healthy way, in a healthy perspective?

Jill 44:57

This, this, I mean, like, this is the question of my life as a professor. Like, I want everybody to want to learn and see things with complexity. I've learned that is not not everybody's cup of tea, not everybody wants to analyze and have their minds exploded and expanded. So I I as I mature, I stop trying to push my desire for educating others onto other people. Um, I think since you brought up Alex Hoffman's like wonderful chapter, um, another one that I will most certainly assign to students to read, what Alex is talking about is he's walking us through Disneyland when it first opened. Like, so he's really visiting it in the 50s and early 60s and talking about the many problematic messages uh that the parks built into its attractions and its stories. Um, so it becomes Alex's chapter is Disney as history making, and the way that history allows Americans to develop misperceptions of some racial groups, ethnic groups, um, stories of American heroes on the frontier is very different when you look at it from the perspective of indigenous people.

Nathan 46:16

Yeah.

History Making And Polarized Debates

Jill 46:17

So yeah, it's um not everybody wants to hear stories where America is not the hero. And Disney tends to make Disney parks and stories tend to make America the hero. And it is doing that less or or complicating. I think Disney's been complicating those stories over the last uh decade plus, and it's getting a lot of pushback for that. Um we talk about this in my Disney classes, we look at some of the controversy that Disney has found itself in lately. And I think what I try to do for students is let them see how stories change over time and what that tells us about who we are and what we value. Uh understanding that when there's pushback to those new stories or to those rehistoricized stories, what is going on, like what is the emotion we're coming from from the from the critics. And Disney, and remind them, and I would remind anybody who's thinking about the things in the book, like in Alex's chapter, that that we are gonna keep changing our understanding of American history over time, like just as America changes over time, our understanding of America changes over time.

Nathan 47:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Alicea 47:34

So kind of kind of pivoting off of that, in um a private mouse for public art, Cher Kraus Knight talks about how Disney discussions tend to split people into extremes, either total fans or total critics. From your experience, how often do people actually think that way? And is one of the goals of this project to teach students how to sit with nuance and hold competing truths at the same time?

Jill 48:01

Yes, yes, it is. I should uh put that on the syllabus. I like that. Um I I want to give a shout out to students because I think our students today are much more able to see nuance overall. So, like the the world is not black and white. They're like, yeah, we know. So it so in some ways I'm curious to hear about reactions to some of these chapters in the book from folks who who have who have a more black and white, who've had a more black and white education. Yeah um, but to answer Alicia's question more specifically, I think I have heard people who are like, oh, Disney's just sucks. Like Disney's the worst. Why would you even go there? It's just exploitation, it's just this. I'm like, okay, well, we could have a larger conversation about American capitalism. And unless you want to critique all of that, like you're just criticizing Disney for playing the game and mostly playing it well over the last hundred years. Not always, but mostly. Um, I like I love what Cher is doing in the chapter. She's another scholar who I really looked up to. One of the good things about doing this book is, you know, we sort of invited people we wanted to see in the book. Like what's our what's our dream casting? And then we got some of them, which was awesome.

Nathan 49:22

It's very similar to being a podcast host. Like we just like I this was a fascinating, actually, because I heard you on the the Disney disc with uh Len Testa and and Jim. And and I was like, I I I'm just gonna fire off an email and see if this works. And and it did. It was fantastic. So uh yeah, I'm familiar with that.

Jill 49:42

Yeah. So and shares one of them for me. I have loved her Disney, her Disney scholarship is so good. Um, and she brings this her art historian perspective that I I don't have a background in art history, so I I need to learn from her. Um, she's asking us to consider what if we can what if we think about Disney Parks as like a public art project. Um and I'm I'm all I'm all about that. And in fact, I'm I'm teaching a class right now that involves some looking at this, nothing to do with Disney. I'm teaching a class on the Holocaust and contemporary issues. I I pair Holocaust and Disney a lot. It keeps me balanced. Um not in the same class, of course, just in my semesters, but um the construction, like architecture is a way of constructing national identity. And so I have a student who's done some really cool work on fascist art projects, like looking at Nazi Germany. And I I'm curious to think about, I'm not calling Disney Parks fascist, please don't hear me saying that, but what public art can can capture and communicate, like when it's architecture, when it's buildings. It's not the same as seeing a painting. It's something that's that's often magnificent and permanent or or long lasting.

Nathan 51:01

Yeah.

Jill 51:02

So it's something I want to think about as I I want to reread her chapter with that in mind.

Nathan 51:06

Yeah. My dad was an artist. Uh he was a uh uh former college professor. He's he was uh um uh we always joke, ABD. He's got like a bachelor's, I think three or four masters and everything, but his dissertation um for his PhD. And he was like, eh, I don't want to do that. He got so close, but whatever.

Jill 51:25

Good for him. If he didn't have to, he didn't have to.

Disney As Public Art

Nathan 51:28

I grew up as like the five-year-old going to art galleries and show openings and all the rest of that stuff. And the chapter that Cher wrote talked about like, yes, you can hold Disney as public art, but it's in a private place and you have to pay to get access to a lot of it. And like that part of that chapter spoke to me personally a lot too, because there's another dichotomy that you know people aren't even thinking about is like is the access to like if you you know, let's just put on table stakes that you're like, okay, yes, we're we'll call Disney public art, but you have to pay a ticket to go to the movies, or you have to subscribe to Disney Plus, or you have to pay a ticket to get into the park, or or buy the the the ticket to go on the cruise. And so like there is okay, it's art. Now what? Uh it's yeah, it was really interesting. There's so many aspects of all of the topics in this book that speak to different people different ways. I just I love that whole thing.

Jill 52:29

Good. That's that was the goal.

Nathan 52:31

Well, I like I said before, I could go on and on, uh, but uh Alicia is is showing me the hook uh from the side of the stage. Uh and I promise this wouldn't be a four-hour episode. So as we kind of look to to wrap up on the text, is there anything that that we haven't talked about that you'd love for you know our listeners uh to become readers and discover on their own that we haven't that we haven't talked about yet?

Jill 52:54

Um I so I love, as I've said earlier, I love all of these people who wrote for the book. Academia is not financially lucrative. And to be a participant in a book like this, like nobody got paid. Like, you know, and the royalties for the book will be very small, even if it sells a lot, like we're talking a few percent.

Nathan 53:15

Right.

Jill 53:15

Um so everybody here is like a hero in my book for doing this. A chapter that I've not had occasion to talk about in any podcast that I want to highlight is the last chapter in the book Um, Wheelchairs, Magic Carpets, and a Community of Tomorrow, Constructing Disabled Utopia in the Disney Parks. This is written by three members of a family, um, a mom and two twins, and they are disability activists. They the the twins have pseudoral palsy. One of them is an academic, and they teamed up to write this chapter that it so beautifully, I get emotional reading it. It so beautifully weaves personal experience and narrative in the parks with critical analysis of disability studies. Yeah, and it's very unique, and I think it's really powerful. There's a reason it's the last chapter in the book. I think it ends, it's a it's a it's the kiss good night from the book in some ways. So I really just hope people also read and treasure that chapter. And I I just haven't gotten to talk about it before and give it that shout out. But I that's one I love to just reread.

Nathan 54:24

That chapter is a personal story from their perspectives. It yes, it has an academic framework that they folded it around, but it is just an authentic personal story. It is not a research, it's not the result of research, it's not a result of reading some things or or or experiencing parks and and and looking at what's read, right? It is how can we as a family approach the parks and and deal with all this stuff? And yeah, it's it's so fantastic. And it speaks to, I think, both Alicia and myself. Um, we we both have had our fair share of medical issues, uh, knee replacements and all sorts of other things. Um I'm going through that right now. You know, we just got back from a cruise. I had a knee replacement in December, uh, just found out this morning I have to go get that uh uh, or at least the the rest of my knee that's still there a little bit adjusted uh this coming week. Uh, really not looking forward to that. But it is, you know, it appro it it causes us to approach being in a Disney park differently. And there's some wonderful things that Disney can do to help in that built environment that you talked about earlier, to help uh those who are dealing with a different set of abilities and capabilities. And and you know, there's some things they can't control. Like getting through a Disney park if you are on a mobility device is really hard. It is so difficult.

Alicea 56:02

And it's a crowded area, yeah. Just maneuvering through like that. And I mean, we have to deal with it on a very temporary basis.

Disability Access And Park Design

Nathan 56:11

Right. And we're privileged and lucky that it is only temporary. And I just I I really appreciate that family for leaning in and sharing their story. And and like you, I hope I hope more people do get a chance to read that because it is it it makes you think and it makes you appreciate not just what others may be going through, but what Disney can and has has done to help folks who are in those situations. And Disney's Disability Access Uh Service has had some highs and it's had some real big lows in the the last few years as they've made some changes. And uh assume positive intent. You know, like everybody's trying to do their best, and there's no way to make everything perfect for everybody. But know that you know those Disney cast members are out to make joy for as many people as they can and and do whatever they can to bring that pixie dust to folks. And um anyhow, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's a fantastic. I'm so glad you brought that chapter up. Thank you.

Jill 57:15

Yeah, I agree. And and that chapter, like many of our chapters, um, there's this sub-theme in the book of cast members being awesome.

Nathan 57:23

Yeah.

Jill 57:24

So I hope I haven't heard from any cast members who've read the book. I hope they have, but I I'd be just be curious how they how they feel about their depiction. But I as I was creating the index, I'm like, yeah, here the cast members are again being great. You're cast members saving the day. You're cast members making the magic. Yep.

Nathan 57:41

So well, we will absolutely share this with the cast members that that we know. And uh and uh yeah, hopefully we can get some thoughts back to you.

Jill 57:50

I'd love it.

Alicea 57:51

Would you mind sharing a little more about what you teach?

Jill 57:54

Yeah. So I am I have a position at my college that when I applied was called Christianity and contemporary religious thought, I think it was. Okay. So I'm at a small liberal arts college, which means I teach all the things. We have a department of two full-time, and then we have a couple staff. What some wonderful folks who who have staff positions but also background in teaching religion, so it fleshes out our department. I teach, gosh, I'll just rattle off some things. I teach annually religion in America. I teach currently I'm teaching African American religions, Holocaust, and contemporary issues. We teach feminist theologies, religion, bodies, and sexuality, uh, New Testament, history of Christianity. Gosh, I'm probably forgetting some things. I teach, I have like a rotation of 13 or 14 classes. I'm currently directing the honors program, so I teach a lot of honors specific courses around research, research and writing. Um, I'm sure I'm forgetting. Oh, Mormonism. I teach Mormonism, which is one of my favorite things to teach, actually. Um, my my other book, my first book, is on Catholicism, women's women's ordination in the Catholic Church. Very controversial. Yeah. And so I teach Catholicism sometimes. I'm planning to teach that again next year. I teach a film class called Jesus in Film and Pop Culture, which is really fun. I've taught a class with my colleague on Title IX, which is also really has been really popular. That comes more through my gender study stuff.

Nathan 59:28

Yeah.

Jill 59:29

Gosh, I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but those are the things I teach. I I like teaching a wide range of things. If I were at a bigger school where I was just this the Americanist, I would probably just teach American religious stuff over and over again. Um, and while in some ways it's absurd that I teach New Testament when I don't read ancient Greek, here we are. And I was tragged well in grad school to teach New Testament, so here we go.

Nathan 59:55

But I love that.

Jill 59:56

I love I love teaching a range of things.

Nathan 59:58

Well, given that widely diverse background, uh, hopefully that helps you here because it's now time for Alicia's patented Disney torture test. But like I said, you have a wide background, you have a doctorate, you know, uh still good luck. You might need it

Alicea 1:00:14

a, it's not patented, and two, it's not torture. All right. It's just your your Disney favorites from under Mickey's umbrella. So like you can choose from Disney, Pixar, Star Wars, Marvel, any of those.

Jill 1:00:30

Okay.

Alicea 1:00:31

Your favorite character.

Jill 1:00:33

See, I never will be able to say just one. Currently, Olaf, Doug, and Pluto.

Alicea 1:00:38

Oh, nice.

Nathan 1:00:39

All good choices.

Alicea 1:00:41

Movie.

Jill 1:00:42

Currently Encanto, Coco, and Ratatouille.

Alicea 1:00:45

Nice. Do you have a favorite ride?

Jill 1:00:48

Tower of Terror.

Alicea 1:00:51

Um Disney World or Disneyland?

Jill 1:00:55

So I've been to Disney World the most. Um, I've only been to Disneyland three times, and but they're so different. Disneylor, I I joke like Disney World is like ‘Merica, like here we are. And Disneyland is a European boutique. Yes. And has so much charm. So I I mean, I can't leave the parks that aren't at Disneyland, you know, they're like Epcot, Animal Kingdom. Yeah. Just amazing. But um, sorry, I don't want to pick, but I respect them both.

Nathan 1:01:25

Fair enough. Very diplomatic answer.

Alicea 1:01:27

Yes. Um, let's see if you'll do this one. Out of all the different individual parks you've been to, do you have a favorite?

Jill 1:01:35

No, that'd be like picking a favorite child, but but my favorite park to just exist in if I'm like not able to get on rides and just want to be there is Epcot.

Nathan 1:01:46

Yeah. That's the right answer. Good job.

Alicea 1:01:49

Do you have a favorite hotel or resort that you've stayed at?

Jill 1:01:53

I'm working my way through all of the deluxes. Um I love Wilderness Lodge.

Alicea 1:02:01

Very Pacific Northwest.

Nathan 1:02:03

Yes.

Alicea 1:02:04

Do you have a favorite restaurant?

Jill 1:02:07

I recently, well, not recently, on a trip not too long ago. So for many years I was, you know, a poor grad student. So I would pack peanut butter and jelly and trail mix and not eat in the parks. Um, so this has just been a change over the last like decade or so. But I think my current favorite sit-down, I loved Skipper's canteen, and that was a surprise. I really had fun with that. I haven't been to many fancy places, and I love spice spice table. Spice table. Spice table. Yeah, Morocco. I love that place. I've had two good meals there.

Alicea 1:02:41

Nice. Last one, favorite Disney snack.

Disney Favorites Lightning Round

Jill 1:02:45

The bread, uh, the pretzel bread pudding in Germany. And I also love the carrot cake cookie at the studios, even though they changed the recipe and it's not as good as it used to be.

Nathan 1:02:57

100% agreed. Good calls, good calls.

Jill 1:03:01

And in terms of sit-down, I didn't I was thinking of sit-down restaurants, but um, in terms of quick service, Satulli is my favorite.

Alicea 1:03:08

Oh, yes, that's a very good one. Yeah, their bowls are amazing.

Jill 1:03:12

Those are fun questions. I like this. I like this.

Nathan 1:03:15

And you survived, congratulations.

Jill 1:03:17

I always have a lot of thoughts.

Nathan 1:03:19

So well, it's been so amazing getting to know you a little bit and and chatting with you today, Jill. Um, where can folks find the book?

Jill 1:03:28

Bloomsbury is our publisher. And I just was looking at the book for uh someone wrote me about the book just this week. And so I know it's still there, available directly from the publisher. And then is always, of course, on Amazon.

Nathan 1:03:41

Yeah.

Jill 1:03:41

Um, I would just recommend people figure out what works best maybe with the shipping and the pricing. The pricing shifts around a lot. So but I do hope people will read it and I'd love to hear folks' thoughts. Um, yeah, reach out. I love I love hearing about this because this book lived in my life and my Google Drive so prominently for like three years. Um and the joy of it is bringing these cool people's work and ideas and their teaching to the public that loves Disney or maybe doesn't and wants to know why they should care. I hope the book answers that too.

Nathan 1:04:16

Yeah.

Alicea 1:04:17

What's next? Is is there another textbook, Disney or otherwise, on the way?

Jill 1:04:23

So I have been working for like eight years on it on another book project. It would be my book, solo authored monograph, um, that I'm calling, gosh, what am I calling it? Faith, trust, and Disney Dust, Evangelizing, and Enchanting America. So that's my current title. Um so I'm excited to maybe finish that one day. We'll see.

Nathan 1:04:46

Yeah.

Jill 1:04:47

Um, I also continue being drawn back into my research on women priests, women's ordination. So I'm I'm working on a few things with that as well.

Where To Buy The Book

Nathan 1:04:56

I love that. I love it. Well, thank you again so, so much for spending some time today. It was just uh amazing having a conversation, and and I I wish I had more, but uh, or more time that is, but alas, we need to let you have a life and we need to have our lives too. And evidently people need to have dinner and things like that. Whatever.

Jill 1:05:18

I don't know.

Nathan 1:05:19

So needy.

Jill 1:05:20

No, I I I love your questions. You have such smart questions. Thank you for reading the book and thinking about it beyond the the page. Uh I love that. That's a joy for me, so thank you.

Nathan 1:05:31

Absolutely. Well, that was so amazing to have Jill on. Uh this is why I love having a podcast. I I heard her on the Disney Dish uh podcast. I want to say it was in September or October, I forget exactly when she was on. And they had her for like 15, maybe 20 minutes. And I I said, I need to A read that book and and B, I want to interview her. And uh lo and behold, when when you You have a podcast, you have a pro you know, a way to do that. And um yeah, that was so fantastic. So uh thank you so much, Jill, for for coming on. Uh, we really value your time and your insights and and uh and the book. It's fantastic.

Alicea 1:06:15

Well, please remember we are not affiliated with Disney or their subsidiaries. These are personal opinions and suggestions based on our own experiences.

Nathan 1:06:25

Indeed. We recommend working with a travel agent or contacting Disney directly to plan your perfect vacation.

Alicea 1:06:32

If you have any questions or suggestions, or would like to chat with us on our show to share your own Disney experiences, please do send an email to podcast at our mousecapades.com.

Nathan 1:06:43

And if you loved this episode, please give us a rating and review in your podcast app. It really helps other Disney fans find us.

Alicea 1:06:52

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Nathan 1:07:03

Yeah, exactly. Thanks for listening. We'll be in your ears next week.

Intro 1:07:09

Thank you for flying Star Tours. Bye bye.